Hmm... I'm not sure what I do think of punishment, now you mention it. The standard punishment for murder in the Culture is ostracization and being followed by a robot for the rest of your life, who'll make sure you never do it again. Given that the murdered person cannot be returned, arguably there's nothing wrong with that as a means of dealing with it. Prison also prevents the person commiting more crime while they're locked up and servers as a deterrent, both of which are valuable things without insisting on retribution.
What are we guilty of? Rejecting God.
Nope. We're guilty of rejecting what someone else tells us is God. The being himself has not put in an appearance to ask whether we reject him or not. I don't think it's reasonable to expect us to dedicate our lives to an invisible entity because some door-to-door salesmen tell us we ought to. There are lots of gods, and even lots of variants on the Christian God (q.v. recent discussions on atreic's journal), vying for our attention. EvangelicalChristianGod doesn't seem very interested in making his desires known in a way which would make people hear him above the noise. I know that Christians are God's ambassadors and all that, but there's the obvious question of why he needs any, what with all the omniscience and omnipresence.
Even if we admit he might exist, EvangelicalChristianGod has a few questions to answer. Just because he's the creator doesn't mean he's allowed to get away with anything. But again, it's worse because he's not actually around to defend himself. I'm sure, what with him being wise and benevolent, that the problems I have could be cleared up after a bit of a chat, and then we could all be friends. This insistence that everyone gambles their eternity on which god really does have the power to send them to Hell is nothing short of silly. It's comically messed up.
Someone like yourself who has had the privelege of hearing God's word taught will be judged more harshly than someone who hasn't.
So what you're saying is that Hank will beat the shit out of me when I leave town unless I kiss his ass? Is he available for chess matches or fiddling competions in an attempt to avert this (you may tell me that's the wrong supernatural being, however, the difference isn't so obvious from where I'm sitting)? How about poker? Erm, ballroom dancing?
To be serious for a moment, my position is that there were some things of value in Christianity, certainly, but that I could not honestly continue in it any longer. Either God values honesty and people who try to do what they think is right, in which case I'm OK anyway, or he doesn't exist, in which case it doesn't matter, or he really is a cosmic jobsworth, in which case he's certainly not deserving of worship.
Do you think this is a fair basis to judge people without any other revelation? What their own consciences tell them is right and wrong (which they use to judge other people in this world)?
I don't think that is fair, because some people are fairly amoral and don't appear to be overly troubled by their consciences, whereas other good people constantly feel they're not good enough. However, I suppose most people think they're basically doing alright, and therefore if your description of how judgement works is true, it is vitally important to shoot missionaries and evangelists on sight. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, as someone once said.
There are also people whose consciences conflict with what you think of as revelation, of course. What are they to do?
Re: This year's CICCU Main Event - DIRECTION
What are we guilty of? Rejecting God.
Nope. We're guilty of rejecting what someone else tells us is God. The being himself has not put in an appearance to ask whether we reject him or not. I don't think it's reasonable to expect us to dedicate our lives to an invisible entity because some door-to-door salesmen tell us we ought to. There are lots of gods, and even lots of variants on the Christian God (q.v. recent discussions on
Even if we admit he might exist, EvangelicalChristianGod has a few questions to answer. Just because he's the creator doesn't mean he's allowed to get away with anything. But again, it's worse because he's not actually around to defend himself. I'm sure, what with him being wise and benevolent, that the problems I have could be cleared up after a bit of a chat, and then we could all be friends. This insistence that everyone gambles their eternity on which god really does have the power to send them to Hell is nothing short of silly. It's comically messed up.
Someone like yourself who has had the privelege of hearing God's word taught will be judged more harshly than someone who hasn't.
So what you're saying is that Hank will beat the shit out of me when I leave town unless I kiss his ass? Is he available for chess matches or fiddling competions in an attempt to avert this (you may tell me that's the wrong supernatural being, however, the difference isn't so obvious from where I'm sitting)? How about poker? Erm, ballroom dancing?
To be serious for a moment, my position is that there were some things of value in Christianity, certainly, but that I could not honestly continue in it any longer. Either God values honesty and people who try to do what they think is right, in which case I'm OK anyway, or he doesn't exist, in which case it doesn't matter, or he really is a cosmic jobsworth, in which case he's certainly not deserving of worship.
Do you think this is a fair basis to judge people without any other revelation? What their own consciences tell them is right and wrong (which they use to judge other people in this world)?
I don't think that is fair, because some people are fairly amoral and don't appear to be overly troubled by their consciences, whereas other good people constantly feel they're not good enough. However, I suppose most people think they're basically doing alright, and therefore if your description of how judgement works is true, it is vitally important to shoot missionaries and evangelists on sight. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, as someone once said.
There are also people whose consciences conflict with what you think of as revelation, of course. What are they to do?