Although it'd then be fair to ask why some are left in the cold if God wants everyone to believe. If God wants A and God is omnipotent does that mean that A must occur? If God is bound by logical limitations it might be that God wants A and B but both cannot be achieved absolutely so God picks B and some of A. In other words maybe God wants everyone to believe but there are other factors, e.g. perhaps (as someone once suggested to me) God wants (nay deserves?) to be glorified and he is glorified when people are punished for their sin. If God wants redemption and punishment he can punish most and save a few.
I'd certainly continue the discussion if the option were available, because it was fun, but I wasn't under the illusion that we were convincing anyone of anything much :-) Well I was finding it convincing. I wouldn't say I've closed and sealed the door on even Evangelical Christianity but there is a dearth of intelligent argument on the subject. There are pat answers on both sides for most things but it doesn't go much beyond that. Steven Carr has some interesting debates (http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/deb.htm) on his website, but I would appreciate more, and (for my own benefit) ones focussed on Evangelicalism.
Saying "God did it" is a sort of non-answer since it doesn't tell you much about the world I like what you're saying, and after all who can disagree with Mr Feynman? I wonder though when we finish opening all the Babushka dolls in physics will we end up with a similar answer?
I think I should have put more emphasis on what else you can explain and what else you can predict. There is some degree of predictability in Christianity. I don't think we get the outcomes that it might predict, but that's a different issue ;-)
You might find it helpful to say "well, that might be what you'd do if the restraints of Christianity were lifted, but..." :-) That's *such* a good idea!!
... I don't think that means he's insincere. It was unfair of me to suggest that he was, you will have a much better picture of his sincerity than me. I've known many Evangelicals who think they sincerely care about the person when I know deep down they don't, they really care about telling people that they're naughty sinners and are going to hell but somehow they've managed to persuade themselves that the two are the same. There are also Evangelicals who don't really care about whether people are going to roast in hell for eternity or not - they are aware that they only really care about telling people the gospel, but that's more honest - what they really want to do is glorify God by telling people the gospel. I think that's fair enough - but I suspect that is what the majority of the UCCF types are like though.
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2006-09-11 12:56 pm (UTC)If God wants A and God is omnipotent does that mean that A must occur? If God is bound by logical limitations it might be that God wants A and B but both cannot be achieved absolutely so God picks B and some of A. In other words maybe God wants everyone to believe but there are other factors, e.g. perhaps (as someone once suggested to me) God wants (nay deserves?) to be glorified and he is glorified when people are punished for their sin. If God wants redemption and punishment he can punish most and save a few.
I'd certainly continue the discussion if the option were available, because it was fun, but I wasn't under the illusion that we were convincing anyone of anything much :-)
Well I was finding it convincing. I wouldn't say I've closed and sealed the door on even Evangelical Christianity but there is a dearth of intelligent argument on the subject. There are pat answers on both sides for most things but it doesn't go much beyond that. Steven Carr has some interesting debates (http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/deb.htm) on his website, but I would appreciate more, and (for my own benefit) ones focussed on Evangelicalism.
Saying "God did it" is a sort of non-answer since it doesn't tell you much about the world
I like what you're saying, and after all who can disagree with Mr Feynman? I wonder though when we finish opening all the Babushka dolls in physics will we end up with a similar answer?
I think I should have put more emphasis on what else you can explain and what else you can predict.
There is some degree of predictability in Christianity. I don't think we get the outcomes that it might predict, but that's a different issue ;-)
You might find it helpful to say "well, that might be what you'd do if the restraints of Christianity were lifted, but..." :-)
That's *such* a good idea!!
... I don't think that means he's insincere.
It was unfair of me to suggest that he was, you will have a much better picture of his sincerity than me. I've known many Evangelicals who think they sincerely care about the person when I know deep down they don't, they really care about telling people that they're naughty sinners and are going to hell but somehow they've managed to persuade themselves that the two are the same. There are also Evangelicals who don't really care about whether people are going to roast in hell for eternity or not - they are aware that they only really care about telling people the gospel, but that's more honest - what they really want to do is glorify God by telling people the gospel. I think that's fair enough - but I suspect that is what the majority of the UCCF types are like though.