Cards on the table: I do think an eternal conscious torment is the most likely reading of the Bible, and I am committed to believing what God has written in the Bible. I don't think it's the only possible reading that is faithful to the text, but I do think it is the most likely. I went to a really good talk at Spring Harvest about this actually (the audio of which I could probably put somewhere if you wanted to listen to it).
I think there is room for saying people can come to the Father without knowing Jesus' name, etc, except that it doesn't really explain why Jesus sent his disciples out to preach the gospel in the knowledge that they would be persecuted and martyred. If salvation is universal and the gospel is more like an optional add-on that makes people have more fuzzy warm feelings in their life then it probably isn't worth being martyred over.
If it's not means "If it's not an inevitable consequence of the mechanics of it", i.e. if God chooses to add that on as a requirement. I don't think that's option 1 or 2 that you gave. Option 1 was what I was proposing about it being a mechanical / unavoidable consequence thing. In that case why hasn't God got the message out more clearly? I suppose trumpets from heaven might be better in that you don't have to sit around waiting for Christian missionaries to come to your country (which of course might not happen). There's the passage in Romans (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%201:18-31;&version=31;) of course (which you may not find helpful). I think there are grey areas in all this - I don't deny that, but I think I'm being faithful to the general thrust of scripture here.
Is it wrong for God to punish us if he doesn't both provide an escape route and make us aware of it? I'm not sure that it is wrong. If our sinful actions deserve judgement it doesn't seem right to blame the judge for doling out justice. We should have no expectation that we will receive leniency, and that in some sense the judge is unjust if he does not provide such an escape for us.
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2008-05-29 12:44 am (UTC)I think there is room for saying people can come to the Father without knowing Jesus' name, etc, except that it doesn't really explain why Jesus sent his disciples out to preach the gospel in the knowledge that they would be persecuted and martyred. If salvation is universal and the gospel is more like an optional add-on that makes people have more fuzzy warm feelings in their life then it probably isn't worth being martyred over.
If it's not means "If it's not an inevitable consequence of the mechanics of it", i.e. if God chooses to add that on as a requirement. I don't think that's option 1 or 2 that you gave. Option 1 was what I was proposing about it being a mechanical / unavoidable consequence thing. In that case why hasn't God got the message out more clearly? I suppose trumpets from heaven might be better in that you don't have to sit around waiting for Christian missionaries to come to your country (which of course might not happen). There's the passage in Romans (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%201:18-31;&version=31;) of course (which you may not find helpful). I think there are grey areas in all this - I don't deny that, but I think I'm being faithful to the general thrust of scripture here.
Is it wrong for God to punish us if he doesn't both provide an escape route and make us aware of it? I'm not sure that it is wrong. If our sinful actions deserve judgement it doesn't seem right to blame the judge for doling out justice. We should have no expectation that we will receive leniency, and that in some sense the judge is unjust if he does not provide such an escape for us.