It's far from clear that what Jesus is reported as having sent people out to preach (either during his life, or after the Resurrection) is The Gospel in the Two-Ways-To-Live sense of a recipe for salvation. (See, e.g., the discussion of N T Wright over on your LJ recently.) As I said in the discussion over on my LJ, I don't think that a few scholars have come up with a different idea that is very new, a minority view, and one where N.T. Wright says "there are probably almost as many ‘new perspective’ positions as there are writers espousing it – and I disagree with most of them." is strong enough to warrant a "It's far from clear" statement. "There is a tentative minority theory..." seems more reasonable.
The advantage of trumpets from heaven would be that they're better evidence, not that they get the message out quicker. I agree, trumpets from heaven would be better in all kinds of ways. That does not appear to be the way God chooses to do things though. He largely works through mankind to do all this stuff.
What Paul says in Romans 1 about God's nature being clear to everyone from looking at the universe is obviously wrong Well it depends what is meant by God's nature. If it is meant to indicate at the very least that God exists, then arguably the case is much stronger now now that we know how 'finely tuned' the universe is. Woah, before you write a large treatise disagreeing with me - it might be better to note that it's 2:30AM, and that I'm going to write a post about this in the near future which might be a better place for an extensive rebuttal ;-)
I don't think I think (and I certainly haven't *said*, unless I goofed) that punishment is never just unless there's a well signposted escape route I thought you were saying that, but perhaps I've just read that in to what you were saying.
The trouble is that hell is an utterly disproportionate punishment for human sin I'm not sure how I would work out what an appropriate punishment was as I do not have the right vantage point / knowledge with which to make such a determination. I could throw out trite phrases like "Ah, but it's sin against an infinite God" and so on - but I think such phrases merely demonstrate that we do not understand how to work out what an appropriate punishment would be for our sin because we cannot properly appreciate the sin itself never mind anything else that would have to go in to the equation (if we even knew what that was) that would calculate a fair punishment.
that we don't actually have the option of living sinless lives any more than we have the option of never making mistakes or never getting ill Obviously this is a complex subject that I can't really do justice to here, tonight, in an LJ comment - but I don't think it is like never making mistakes. If you think of sin as being about volitional acts then it's quite different from making mistakes. Mistakes are not volitional.
It is unjust to punish people for something they have no way of avoiding. I'm a bit tempted to say that God can do what he wants, but I know the doors that opens. However the temptation remains there.
Of course (I'll just add) I don't think Christianity is true because of all this stuff. I think it's true because of other stuff. All the things you've raised (many of which are admittedly quite hard to respond to) do not represent critical hits to Christianity AFAICT. I think it stands up to critical analysis pretty well.
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2008-05-29 01:30 am (UTC)As I said in the discussion over on my LJ, I don't think that a few scholars have come up with a different idea that is very new, a minority view, and one where N.T. Wright says "there are probably almost as many ‘new perspective’ positions as there are writers espousing it – and I disagree with most of them." is strong enough to warrant a "It's far from clear" statement. "There is a tentative minority theory..." seems more reasonable.
The advantage of trumpets from heaven would be that they're better evidence, not that they get the message out quicker.
I agree, trumpets from heaven would be better in all kinds of ways. That does not appear to be the way God chooses to do things though. He largely works through mankind to do all this stuff.
What Paul says in Romans 1 about God's nature being clear to everyone from looking at the universe is obviously wrong
Well it depends what is meant by God's nature. If it is meant to indicate at the very least that God exists, then arguably the case is much stronger now now that we know how 'finely tuned' the universe is. Woah, before you write a large treatise disagreeing with me - it might be better to note that it's 2:30AM, and that I'm going to write a post about this in the near future which might be a better place for an extensive rebuttal ;-)
I don't think I think (and I certainly haven't *said*, unless I goofed) that punishment is never just unless there's a well signposted escape route
I thought you were saying that, but perhaps I've just read that in to what you were saying.
The trouble is that hell is an utterly disproportionate punishment for human sin
I'm not sure how I would work out what an appropriate punishment was as I do not have the right vantage point / knowledge with which to make such a determination. I could throw out trite phrases like "Ah, but it's sin against an infinite God" and so on - but I think such phrases merely demonstrate that we do not understand how to work out what an appropriate punishment would be for our sin because we cannot properly appreciate the sin itself never mind anything else that would have to go in to the equation (if we even knew what that was) that would calculate a fair punishment.
that we don't actually have the option of living sinless lives any more than we have the option of never making mistakes or never getting ill
Obviously this is a complex subject that I can't really do justice to here, tonight, in an LJ comment - but I don't think it is like never making mistakes. If you think of sin as being about volitional acts then it's quite different from making mistakes. Mistakes are not volitional.
It is unjust to punish people for something they have no way of avoiding.
I'm a bit tempted to say that God can do what he wants, but I know the doors that opens. However the temptation remains there.
Of course (I'll just add) I don't think Christianity is true because of all this stuff. I think it's true because of other stuff. All the things you've raised (many of which are admittedly quite hard to respond to) do not represent critical hits to Christianity AFAICT. I think it stands up to critical analysis pretty well.