Yes, I'm wary of obvious things too. But if something you believe is contradicted by Very Obvious Things, then I think that's evidence against it; and if your defence is to say "well, the understandings that lead you to think that's obvious aren't reliable" but you don't have some specific account of why *that* evaluation of obviousness is more unreliable than other similar ones, then you've landed yourself with (in this case) a very far-reaching skepticism about our ability to tell what's right and what's wrong; and I've explained my reasons for thinking that such skepticism badly undermines Christianity, or any other revealed religion for that matter.
Of course I don't think you're a utilitarian. But, as I said, one of the things that makes me trust this particular bit of "common sense" is that a variety of different ethical systems seem to me to lead to the same conclusion. Also, it's widely (not universally) agreed by non-utilitarians that utilitarianism is at least often a good approximation to the truth.
Perhaps what you "reasonably expect" doesn't include "not being tortured for eternity". Expectations differ. But tell me, what would you think of someone who claimed to be obeying Jesus's instruction to "turn the other cheek" if when someone slapped him in the face he smiled sweetly, offered the other cheek ... and then, a few days later, burned his assailant's house down?
I am not, of course, removing your responsibility. (Go on, check it's still there. See?) I have said at least twice now, I think, that I am *not* claiming that "everyone else did it too so it's not my fault". In fact, I see that I made that clear in the very comment you're replying to. If you must argue with straw men, could you at least make them ones I haven't already explicitly said aren't my position?
If there were a town where everyone without exception stole, then actually I *wouldn't* conclude that everyone in the town should be punished. I would conclude that probably there's something in the water or the culture that somehow stops the people understanding what's wrong with stealing, or makes them unable to resist the temptation; I would regard punishing them as an exercise in futility; but I would try to figure out what was broken so as to make the town stop being a place where everyone steals.
And of course that's different from our actual situation, since in your hypothetical example I'd know (since it's not true that everyone everywhere steals) that the problem, whatever it was, wasn't so deeply ingrained as to be Part Of Human Nature; but here in the real world, we aren't in a position to draw any such conclusion.
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2008-05-31 11:05 pm (UTC)Of course I don't think you're a utilitarian. But, as I said, one of the things that makes me trust this particular bit of "common sense" is that a variety of different ethical systems seem to me to lead to the same conclusion. Also, it's widely (not universally) agreed by non-utilitarians that utilitarianism is at least often a good approximation to the truth.
Perhaps what you "reasonably expect" doesn't include "not being tortured for eternity". Expectations differ. But tell me, what would you think of someone who claimed to be obeying Jesus's instruction to "turn the other cheek" if when someone slapped him in the face he smiled sweetly, offered the other cheek ... and then, a few days later, burned his assailant's house down?
I am not, of course, removing your responsibility. (Go on, check it's still there. See?) I have said at least twice now, I think, that I am *not* claiming that "everyone else did it too so it's not my fault". In fact, I see that I made that clear in the very comment you're replying to. If you must argue with straw men, could you at least make them ones I haven't already explicitly said aren't my position?
If there were a town where everyone without exception stole, then actually I *wouldn't* conclude that everyone in the town should be punished. I would conclude that probably there's something in the water or the culture that somehow stops the people understanding what's wrong with stealing, or makes them unable to resist the temptation; I would regard punishing them as an exercise in futility; but I would try to figure out what was broken so as to make the town stop being a place where everyone steals.
And of course that's different from our actual situation, since in your hypothetical example I'd know (since it's not true that everyone everywhere steals) that the problem, whatever it was, wasn't so deeply ingrained as to be Part Of Human Nature; but here in the real world, we aren't in a position to draw any such conclusion.