I'm not *investigating Christianity* from this angle. I'm investigating (or, actually, criticizing, but if anyone finds anything new and worthwhile to say in defence then I'm all ears) *the doctrine of eternal torment*. And, guess what?, what I actually did is to first of all evaluate (almost entirely on other grounds) whether Christianity is true, just as you suggest. The outcome of that prevented me continuing along your recommended course.
I am not claiming that not knowing the answer to every question is a problem with Christianity, or indeed with belief-in-eternal-torment. I have said so absolutely clearly and explicitly. (I drew a distinction between "puzzles" and "problems", if I'm remembering my terminology correctly.) Enough with the straw men, already!
Yes, there are other things in Christianity that we can check. I checked. Christianity is wrong. Yes, we can ask God if he is real. I asked. If he is, he's not telling.
Sorry to be so blunt about that, but it seems you're suggesting that somehow it's improper for people who aren't Christians to make any comment on things like hell because the only right perspective to approach such things from is (1) that of having investigated Christianity carefully, and simultaneously (2) that of actually being a Christian, which for some reason you appear to take as equivalent. They are not equivalent. But, in any case, perhaps it hasn't escaped your notice that people who *are* Christians don't always find eternal torment credible, or compatible with the alleged goodness of God.
I am sure that people on all sides of this debate erect straw men, misunderstand one another's positions, etc. As you already remarked in another context, "other people do it too" isn't a very good justification for anything. So please don't.
Of course I haven't made the *same* claim about my intuitions (or whatever they are) as you have about yours. But I am claiming that my conviction that eternal torment is not a reasonable consequence for finite sins to have isn't *just* a matter of how I happen to feel. It seems that you disagree. This is pretty much parallel to my opinion of your belief that, all considered, the best thing is probably for me to be tortured for eternity.
I'm afraid I don't know with much confidence what it feels like to have truth imparted to you by an external power (unless you count things like university lectures). Did you have prior experience of that, to enable you to tell that whatever-it-was-you-experienced was that rather than something else?
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2008-05-31 11:17 pm (UTC)I am not claiming that not knowing the answer to every question is a problem with Christianity, or indeed with belief-in-eternal-torment. I have said so absolutely clearly and explicitly. (I drew a distinction between "puzzles" and "problems", if I'm remembering my terminology correctly.) Enough with the straw men, already!
Yes, there are other things in Christianity that we can check. I checked. Christianity is wrong. Yes, we can ask God if he is real. I asked. If he is, he's not telling.
Sorry to be so blunt about that, but it seems you're suggesting that somehow it's improper for people who aren't Christians to make any comment on things like hell because the only right perspective to approach such things from is (1) that of having investigated Christianity carefully, and simultaneously (2) that of actually being a Christian, which for some reason you appear to take as equivalent. They are not equivalent. But, in any case, perhaps it hasn't escaped your notice that people who *are* Christians don't always find eternal torment credible, or compatible with the alleged goodness of God.
I am sure that people on all sides of this debate erect straw men, misunderstand one another's positions, etc. As you already remarked in another context, "other people do it too" isn't a very good justification for anything. So please don't.
Of course I haven't made the *same* claim about my intuitions (or whatever they are) as you have about yours. But I am claiming that my conviction that eternal torment is not a reasonable consequence for finite sins to have isn't *just* a matter of how I happen to feel. It seems that you disagree. This is pretty much parallel to my opinion of your belief that, all considered, the best thing is probably for me to be tortured for eternity.
I'm afraid I don't know with much confidence what it feels like to have truth imparted to you by an external power (unless you count things like university lectures). Did you have prior experience of that, to enable you to tell that whatever-it-was-you-experienced was that rather than something else?