Morality again

[nameandnature]

There's a popular evangelical Christian argument against atheism which involves morality somehow.

In the unsophisticated form it's that atheism leads to immorality (like the caller on a radio talk show Dawkins was on in the US, who said that if he thought there wasn't a God he probably would murder his neighbour). This isn't really worth engaging with, because it's not an argument that atheism is false.

In the more sophisticated form the argument is that atheism, if true, necessarily means that morality is an arbitrary personal opinion. But we strongly feel that some things are just wrong regardless of anyone's opinion (in this argument, rape and the Nazis are the canonical examples of things that are just wrong). This contradicts atheism, so atheism must be false.

The latter form of the argument came up recently in an interview that Premier Christian Radio's Justin Brierley did with Richard Dawkins after a debate Dawkins was in. Brierley wrote a piece about it on the UCCF's BeThinking.org site. robhu has posted about it on his journal, and has a poll on what people think about the morality of very bad things. Some lively discussion has ensued there.
Edit: but unfortunately Rob deleted his LiveJournal a while back. Here's what I said:

Although this "OMG you atheists can't claim Hilter/rape is wrong" argument seems popular among evangelicals at the moment, I'm not sure what the argument against atheism actually is.

Most atheists demonstrably do claim that Hilter and rape are wrong, so the argument seems to be that such claims aren't well-founded if atheism is true, so that atheism is inconsistent.

There are atheists who are moral realists, although I've not checked whether their arguments are any good. Still, there are some serious names in that Wikipedia article (and Ayn Rand), so I'd be reluctant to conclude that they're inconsistent without looking into it.

Even if atheism is inconsistent with the existence of moral absolutes (note: I originally wrote "moral realism" here, but that's not the topic), in the absence of evidence that there is such a thing as objective morality, this sort of argument does not seem to demonstrate that atheism is false, merely that if atheism is true, the universe is not as we'd like it to be (in the sense that we'd like it if there were moral absolutes). The objection to atheism on these grounds seems to be wishful thinking.

Personally, while I think there could be beings who thought that rape and Hitler were not wrong, most of us are not such beings and (crucially) do not want ourselves or others to become such beings. That is, arguments that these things are wrong can be recognised by most humans, but aren't guaranteed by the universe/God/whatever.

I also responded to one of Rob's objections:

You suggest that it's wishful thinking if our deepest sense of what is true does not match up with your criteria for objective proof of that sense. Which I take to be a position where you say you have some strong inner sense that say the holocaust is wrong (even if everyone who disagrees is exterminated or brainwashed to believe otherwise), but because that doesn't match with the worldview you have (that is there is no God, and so no objective morality) you say that it's just wishful thinking. For those of us have the worldview that God is real, it makes a great of deal of sense.

So, if I understand what you're saying, "our" is moral absolutists, "your" is me, right? So you're saying I, pw201, have a strong sense that Bad Stuff is wrong (which is true), further, that I think it'll be wrong even if everyone else disagrees (which is true). But I also think such a position (i.e. my own) is wishful thinking, which means I look a bit silly.

But in fact what I think is wishful thinking is the objection to atheism on the grounds that it would mean there are no moral absolutes, because the only grounds for that objection I'm aware of at the moment is that the objector would like it if there were moral absolutes, not that there actually are moral absolutes.

You might be saying that what I've said about Bad Stuff two paragraphs ago means I do accept that there are moral absolutes, but in fact all I've said is what I think, not that God/the Platonic Form of Moralty agrees with me.

Comments

[stevencarrwork.livejournal.com]

As I already explained, the rules of football are a given, just as the laws of nature are a given.

You are not going to change them the next time you play football. They were set by humans, but they count now as fixed rules.


How do you convince people to behave morally if they do not want to increase the well-being of humanity in general and individuals in particular?

How do you convince people to behave morally if they think their individual well-being will be increased by being punished by your alleged god?

It is exactly the same problem.

Does Matt think going to Heaven will improve the well-being of humanity?

Why should we care about going to Heaven, if we don't care about well-being?

Matt's morality suffers from the problem Matt outlines , that there is no need to be moral, if you don't care about the rewards that moral behaviour brings.

Matt's comment is like somebody who queries economics by claiming that economists cannot say what 'goods' are and that only God can say what good is.

Economists would just ignore such comments. Goods are what society defines as goods and economics is the study of how they can be made optimal.

Well-being is a human construct, and morality is the science of seeing how well-being can be made optimal.

There is no more need for the supernatural in morality than there is a need for a god to tell economists what 'goods' are.