The Keller link seems to be an elaboration of what his book says, which I've said is (a) unlikely to be what the NT authors thought on the matter, and (b) not backed by evidence in any case. In saying people send themselves to Hell and then claiming Jesus's death did something important, Keller wants to have his cake and eat it. Every additional claim someone makes is burdensome, and there are plenty of claims:
"infinitely dependent we are on God for everything" - So how does anything exist at all if God has withdrawn his presence from it? If good things somehow come from God in this life, why does God withdraw his supportive presence when people die?
"Even in this world it is clear that self-centeredness rather than God-centeredness makes you miserable and blind" - Is it? Even if self-centredness makes you miserable, are self-centredness and God-centredness the only two options?
"But if, as the Bible teaches, our souls will go on forever, then just imagine where these two kinds of souls will be in a billion years. Hell is simply one's freely chosen path going on forever." - Can someone who wasn't seeking God in life find God in those billion years? If not, why not? If they can, what's the hurry to convert to Christianity?
"Commentators have pointed out that this is not a gesture of compassion, but rather an effort at blame-shifting. He is saying that he did not have a chance, he did not have adequate information to avoid hell." - No he isn't. The flow of the story is that he first asks for water because he's being tortured by fire, and when told there's no hope for him because of the "great chasm", he begs for his loved ones instead. Keller's reading is egregious eisegesis, to coin a phrase. Has Keller read Rev 22:18, I wonder? "That is clearly his point, because Abraham says forcefully that people in this life have been well-informed through the Scriptures." - What does what Abraham says tell us about what the Rich Man's motivation is? For that matter, is this parable actually about the mechanics of Hell, or an exhortation not to ignore the poor?
"Hell is therefore a prison in which the doors are first locked from the inside by us and therefore are locked from the outside by God" - "and therefore"? Which is it? Where in Romans 1:24ff does Paul say he's talking about the next life rather than this one? Why doesn't Keller quote Romans 2?
Keller cherry picks verses to avoid the unpalatable truth that the NT authors thought God himself would judge the unrighteous and condemn them to what we call Hell. There's some variation on whether doing good things helps you to avoid Hell, but AFAICT Paul thought that people are righteous through faith in Jesus. Paul's view is now Christian orthodoxy, at least as far as this ex-evangelical is concerned. Keller's view is a Christian gloss on Buddhism designed for people who rightly perceive that the orthodox view makes God a monster. But what evidence causes Keller to chose it over orthodoxy?
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timeasmymeasure
Re: great post
Date: 2009-02-12 11:58 pm (UTC)- "infinitely dependent we are on God for everything" - So how does anything exist at all if God has withdrawn his presence from it? If good things somehow come from God in this life, why does God withdraw his supportive presence when people die?
- "Even in this world it is clear that self-centeredness rather than God-centeredness makes you miserable and blind" - Is it? Even if self-centredness makes you miserable, are self-centredness and God-centredness the only two options?
- "But if, as the Bible teaches, our souls will go on forever, then just imagine where these two kinds of souls will be in a billion years. Hell is simply one's freely chosen path going on forever." - Can someone who wasn't seeking God in life find God in those billion years? If not, why not? If they can, what's the hurry to convert to Christianity?
- "Commentators have pointed out that this is not a gesture of compassion, but rather an effort at blame-shifting. He is saying that he did not have a chance, he did not have adequate information to avoid hell." - No he isn't. The flow of the story is that he first asks for water because he's being tortured by fire, and when told there's no hope for him because of the "great chasm", he begs for his loved ones instead. Keller's reading is egregious eisegesis, to coin a phrase. Has Keller read Rev 22:18, I wonder? "That is clearly his point, because Abraham says forcefully that people in this life have been well-informed through the Scriptures." - What does what Abraham says tell us about what the Rich Man's motivation is? For that matter, is this parable actually about the mechanics of Hell, or an exhortation not to ignore the poor?
- "Hell is therefore a prison in which the doors are first locked from the inside by us and therefore are locked from the outside by God" - "and therefore"? Which is it? Where in Romans 1:24ff does Paul say he's talking about the next life rather than this one? Why doesn't Keller quote Romans 2?
Keller cherry picks verses to avoid the unpalatable truth that the NT authors thought God himself would judge the unrighteous and condemn them to what we call Hell. There's some variation on whether doing good things helps you to avoid Hell, but AFAICT Paul thought that people are righteous through faith in Jesus. Paul's view is now Christian orthodoxy, at least as far as this ex-evangelical is concerned. Keller's view is a Christian gloss on Buddhism designed for people who rightly perceive that the orthodox view makes God a monster. But what evidence causes Keller to chose it over orthodoxy?[Edited for clarity and Cthulhu]