Different Tan

[nameandnature]

ladysisyphus writes about why she is a Christian even though she cannot say unequivocally that Jesus Christ is her Lord and Saviour, which, as we all know, is the litmus of such things. People who thought that the Jerry Springer entry was intended to imply that I believed all American Christians were nutters, take note: there is at least one who is not. andrewducker says what I'd have said about truth and facts, in a conversation which reminds me of those I've had with cathedral_life.

People who read Hebrew might want to have a look at the huge thread on Creationism that developed under my post here, since some of it relies on what I suspect are standard Creationist assertions about the Hebrew used in Genesis. Or you might not: after I while, I learned to avoid the Creationism threads on uk.r.c, only popping out occasionally to ambush people with physics.

There are more photos of the musicals party, to add to bluap's. My camera's rubbish in low light, alas.

Random Flash linkage: To Kill A Mockingbird, Numa Numa. Been doing the rounds, but I mention it in case you've not seen it.

Update: I got a comment from someone recommending the CICCU mission talks this year (which have now been and gone). This has started a debate on whether God is just. Read all about it in the comments inside.

Comments

Re: This year's CICCU Main Event - DIRECTION

[ex-robhu.livejournal.com]

Whatever system of logic we use may very well be insufficient to describe God completely.
Possibly that is true - but we should expect Gods actions within the world we inhabit not to be contradictory. This is especially true of a god who wants to be known by the inhabitants of the world she has created, acting in a way that makes belief in her illogical would be a very cruel thing to do.

Almost all attempts to do so will simplfy has character, so any conclusions reached (or contradictions shown) in these logical system should be treated with extreme caution as they are probably dealing with a distorted concept of God.
Ah - so where there are any contradictions or ways in which we can see that Christianity is false it's because the answers are beyond us? How convinient! I find Santa Claus operates in much the same way.

I don't so much define God as confess the God made know to us through Jesus Christ
We know very little if anything for certain about Jesus Christ. There is very limited and disputed evidence from secondary sources about who he was and what he did (in fact some respected scholars question whether he did in fact exist at all). So if we are to know God through Jesus Christ then we can't really be sure who God is at all. Some Christians (presumably including yourself) would say that they experience God's presence internally, or that they have a personal relationship with God - unfortunately people have these kinds of experiences in other religions as well, so that's hardly a reliable source of evidence!

It's ridiculous to believe in a God who is all powerful, who wants everyone to know about him but stubbornly refuses to be plainly obvious. Many who earnestly seek God (such as myself) question why God is so hidden if indeed he does want us to know about himself. Some have said (on the CE course for instance) that if God were to make his existence obvious it would take away my choice (although its never explained why this is a bad thing), this can't be the case because JC made it obvious that he was God to the disciples and the people he performed miracles to and yet they still had the ability to choose not to follow. Others say that we need to have "faith" where faith is defined more or less as believeing in something although there is no good evidence to do so (or at least no good evidence compared to many other religions) - I might as well believe in Allah, and other god, or pixies.

The purpose of my statements about logic are not to suggest that they are a good way to know God, but to refute the allegation that logical can be used to disprove God by showing he is self-contradictory.
So if there is a clear contradiction your answer is what exactly? One might wonder if there is anything you could be shown that would end your belief. I was talking to a doctor of psychology the other night, and he said he had found this quite often with (Evangelical, and *perhaps* other) Christians - their position is extremely inflexible, they aren't interested in finding out what is true, or listening if their position is shown to be incorrect; in fact one person commented to me recently "I don't care if you show me conclusively that God doesn't exist, I'll still believe in him".

We are forming questions "in that logical system", which must be meaningful "in that logical system". How statements in this system relate to the real world is another question!
Does it follow from your statement that in your opinion is the world removed from logic?

Re: This year's CICCU Main Event - DIRECTION

[nlj21.livejournal.com]

Does it follow from your statement that in your opinion is the world removed from logic?

I think this covers many points. I do not believe the world is removed from logic, what I think we, or scientifically minded people like myself, do is create logical systems to create models which fit the world around us. These models aren't the real world, but the are useful to understand it. These are what the laws of physics, and every other scientific theory are: models which make sense of the world around us. So our models and the world aren't the same, but they would appear to have a connection, exactly what it is I'm not too sure I can describe. (Maybe someone else who studied HPS might be able to help?)

When you talk say things like contradictory and illogical you do have to make sure you have described the system you are working in.

So if there is a clear contradiction your answer is what exactly? One might wonder if there is anything you could be shown that would end your belief.

You can end my belief by showing me a view of the world which covers the variety of different areas of life that Christianity does; makes more sense of the things which are hard to understand in Christianity; and contains a better hope than that which I have in Christ crucified. If you have found one: do tell me!


Some Christians (presumably including yourself) would say that they experience God's presence internally, or that they have a personal relationship with God - unfortunately people have these kinds of experiences in other religions as well, so that's hardly a reliable source of evidence!

I would say the Christian experience is an internal confirmation (by the Holy Spirit) of the external evidence in the bible. So can be both subjective and objective at once!

Oh, on a side note, may I suggest it worthwhile investigating if historians find primary or secondary sources to be more accurate. And what exactly are good criteria to decide if someone existed, etc..