(no subject)

[nameandnature]

Stuff I found on the web, probably on andrewducker's del.icio.us feed or something.

Psychology Today on ex-Christian ex-ministers and on magical thinking

Psychology Today has a couple of interesting articles, one on ministers who lose their faith, and another on magical thinking. Quoteable quote:

"We tend to ignore how much cognitive effort is required to maintain extreme religious beliefs, which have no supporting evidence whatsoever," says the evolutionary biologist David Sloan Wilson. He likens the process to a cell trying to maintain its osmotic pressure. "You're trying to pump out the mainstream influences all the time. You're trying to maintain this wall, and keep your beliefs inside, and all these other beliefs outside. That's hard work." In some ways, then, at least for fundamentalists, "growing out of it is the easiest thing in the world."

That sounds sort of familiar. I'm not sure I'd consider myself an ex-fundamentalist, but I did find that giving up removed the constant pressure to keep baling.

The stuff about moral contagion in the magical thinking article reminded me of Haggai 2:10-14, where it's clear that cleanness (in the Bible's sense of moral and ceremonial acceptability, rather then lack of dirt) is less contagious than uncleanness. There's possibly a link here to the tendency of some religions to sharply divide the world into non-believers and believers, and to be careful about how much you expose yourself to the non-believing world (q.v. the unequally yoked teaching you get in the more extreme variants of a lot of religions).

Old interview with Philip Pullman

Third Way interviewed Pullman years ago. It's the origin of one of his statements on whether he's an agnostic or an atheist, which I rather like:

Can I elucidate my own position as far as atheism is concerned? I don’t know whether I’m an atheist or an agnostic. I’m both, depending on where the standpoint is.

The totality of what I know is no more than the tiniest pinprick of light in an enormous encircling darkness of all the things I don’t know – which includes the number of atoms in the Atlantic Ocean, the thoughts going through the mind of my next-door neighbour at this moment and what is happening two miles above the surface of the planet Mars. In this illimitable darkness there may be God and I don’t know, because I don’t know.

But if we look at this pinprick of light and come closer to it, like a camera zooming in, so that it gradually expands until here we are, sitting in this room, surrounded by all the things we do know – such as what the time is and how to drive to London and all the other things that we know, what we’ve read about history and what we can find out about science – nowhere in this knowledge that’s available to me do I see the slightest evidence for God.

So, within this tiny circle of light I’m a convinced atheist; but when I step back I can see that the totality of what I know is very small compared to the totality of what I don’t know. So, that’s my position.

This isn't really a surprising statement, but, like Ruth Gledhill's discovery that Richard Dawkins is a liberal Anglican, some people seem surprised that atheists aren't ruling out things which some people would regard as gods. The point is that there's no decent evidence that anyone has met one. Deism is a respectable position, I think (although I'm not sure why you'd bother with it), but religions which claim God has spoken to them are implausible because of God's inability to keep his story straight.

The walls have Google

The thing about blogging is that you never know who's reading. Someone called Voyou makes a post ending with an aside which is critical of A.C. Grayling's response to Terry Eagleton's review of The God Delusion. Grayling turns up in the comments to argue with them.

(I keep turning up more conversations about the Eagleton review: see my bookmarks for the best of them).

"Compact of hypocrisy and secret vice"

Yellow wonders whether or not he should sign the UCCF doctrinal basis in this post and the followup. Signs point to "not". Si Hollett reminds me of myself in my foolish youth.

Comments

[gjm11.livejournal.com]

The worms are in the gospels, actually. And the fire. The molten sulphur is in Revelation. Not so sure about the devils with pitchforks :-). Lots of other details in the ancient-pop-culture hell come from Dante, I think.

Anyway. I've been arguing against "eternal conscious torment" because that's something that (1) a lot of Christians believe in, and defend, and (2) it's monstrously evil. I quite agree that there are notions of hell that aren't so bad; and I think one can have authentic Christianity without having hell at all (other than, perhaps, as a place of final destruction). So, as I've said elsewhere in this Very Long Discussion, I'm not aiming here to refute Christianity or even evangelicalism. Just to explain why I think one particular idea believed by some but not all evangelical Christians is odious and silly and generally Bad.

[tifferrobinson.livejournal.com]

No worms! The worms are in a later greek text. KJV has them, most modern translations use the Westcott hort text, which is a compilation of the earlier text. Textus receptus is the manuscript used in the KJV, hence the worms.

The fire is not necessarily literal, but that doesn't mean it isn't bad. It tends to be fairly difficult to explain to people what eternity will be like, so metaphor can come in handy. And quicker.

[gjm11.livejournal.com]

D'oh, you're right. I was fooled by the fact that the worms are in the RSV, which is pretty decent textually. (In particular, it's well post-W+H and isn't the TR.)

I think the fire (and worms, perhaps :-) ) are pretty clear references to Jerusalem's municipal rubbish dump at Ge Hinnom, where rubbish was burned _in order to get rid of it_. Which is one reason why I think annihilationism is a pretty tenable position for Christians even if they take a conservative view of the Bible.

I suspect that the very phrase "what eternity will be like" embodies an oversimplification -- the usual view AIUI is that eternity is all about sharing in God's transtemporal existence. (I have some suspicions that this is a sophisticated modern understanding that would have baffled the authors of the NT. That doesn't necessarily mean that Christians shouldn't adopt it.)